In a message dated 11/27/98 6:10:01 PM Central Standard Time, elf@pclink.com
writes:

> Can I ask if the box was concealed?
> Mine are not visible to passers-by - the clues are needed
> to find them. I'm just wondering if this was done by someone
> who had gotten the clues and then went out of their way to
> get it or if it is more likely that it was taken by someone
> who stumbled across it?

The box was not visible from the main trail, nor was it visible with
just a brief look at the surroundings from the lookout point it was
just behind ~ however, I could not say that it was concealed. It
would have been seen if a person decided to take a close look inside
the tree and bent down and to the right to look inside.
I obviously underestimated general curiosity here, and
also the park is used in general much more than I thought.
When I scouted the park and placed the box it was on a weekday ~
quite deserted ~ and when we returned on weekends I was surprised
to see so many people on the trails. I think it was found accidentally.
My first inclination was that an accidental find would be a fine thing
(witness the first postcard I received from a person who came across it
without clues), but now I'm determined not to be so trusting.

> Did you have 2 stamps as indicated on your clues page?

There were two stamps in the box, the main image and a little
one of words, and they were the original eraser carvings.
I do have a good copy of the images, and I will have them made
up in rubber this winter, I guess. If you would be so kind, Dan,
the clues for this letterbox should be deleted, or maybe a line or two
replacing the clues explaining that they will be revised in the spring...
Though the spot was really idyllic, I will have to find a more
concealed hiding place.
Thanks much,
Deborah
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In a message dated 11/27/98 2:19:52 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MixtMedia@aol.com writes:

> We blew off the rest of the chores slated for the day,
> (because it's about 30 degrees above the average temp. for
> this time of year in Madison! in the 60s!), to take a couple of
> the girls' friends to find the letterbox. The walk was wonderful,
> but the box was gone. As in no sign of it anywhere.
> Back to the drawing board.....
> Deborah

This is VERY SAD !!!!!
Like Dan, I am also curious about the location and visibility of the box. I'm
also wondering if there was any literature inside explaining the nature of the
hobby. I am hopeful that the info sheet that Erik Davis and I created might
encourage some accidental discoverers to gain an understanding and respect for
the hobby, thus becoming potential letterboxers themselves, rather than
thieves and vandals. (This info sheet is referenced, and available to all, in
the "Gettting Started" section of the Letterbox USA website) Personally, I
have been placing 20-30 copies of this sheet in each of my boxes, so people
can feel free to take one for themselves.

Try not to be discouraged, Deborah. I know there will doubtless be other
boxes that come up missing, and I'm sorry yours had to be the first. But
please turn the other cheek and replace the box. Hide it well and enclose the
above mentioned info sheet. I have faith that such disappearances will be the
exception, not the rule.

Sincerely,
Mitch Klink
Portland, OR
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Deborah

I was also sorry to hear of the first letterbox lost - that is, I assume
it was the first, as I've not been able to check on most of mine.

Please fill us in on how well it was hidden!

If it was casually found by a non-letterboxer, as a result of too
easily seen, thats the best news, because it is one that we can likley
protect against (.e. hide it better next time. And, include an appeal to
the casual finder to PLEASE put it back. And thats the best that we can
hope to do.

There is always the possibility that it was found by an "authority
figure", meaning, in an unacceptable place. If so, you'd likel;y hear
about it, hopefully easily dealt with.

Worst scenario: Somebody monitering these websites went looking with
malice aforethought. Poses a tough question, likely only able to be
dealth with philosophically: Don't look back, make another and continue
to spread the fun for others. Nobody can really steal what you are
willing to give away, although it is still frustrating when it happens.

I suppose also, if there are a series of missing boxes, one can always
decide to release clues only on request, say, via an e-mail request.
Personally, I'd hate to see it come to that, as would all of us. But, it
is my understanding that many Dartmoor clues are passed about among
friends and not generally published. Still, at this early stage here,
I'll still prefer to take the risk of loss to keep the hobby easily
accessible to as many as possible. Lets all hope that it works out that
way.

Good luck, Deborah

Erik Davis

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MixtMedia@aol.com wrote:
elf@pclink.com
> writes:
> > Can I ask if the box was concealed?

> My first inclination was that an accidental find would be a fine thing
> (witness the first postcard I received from a person who came across
> it without clues)

This convinces me Deborah that your box was stumbled upon by someone
who doesn't know what letterboxing is. That's good news (better news
anyway) than if it had been hunted by someone starting out at the clues page.

> If you would be so kind, Dan,
> the clues for this letterbox should be deleted, or maybe a line or two
> replacing the clues explaining that they will be revised in the
> spring...

Will do Deborah.
Dan
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MixtMedia@aol.com wrote:

> What do you all think? This
> isn't alpine terrain or anything.... think it's OK to direct a searcher
> off a trail a tiny bit?

I would actually imagine the majority of letterboxes to be off trail
at some point, in some cases substantially off trail. I would speculate
that many, if not most, in Dartmoor are (perhaps someone could confirm/deny
this).

The one I placed in Valley Forge park is off trail, and someone still found
it accidently (and left a nice note and otherwise left it alone). I have
put in my clue that off trail hiking is required, so people not confortable
with that could pass if they want, so I guess IMO off trail is ok.

randy
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Hi Deborah--

Yes!! Send them off trail if you need to!

I have 4 boxes out there and all but one leave the paved trail...there's a
little mud now and then, but for the most part I don't think it's a problem.

Julie


"I can't understand why people are frightened of new ideas. I'm
frightened of the old ones." John Cage



Want to buy a book? I'm trying to make a life-long dream come true and
open a bookshop. It's tiny, but it grows now and then. Come see!
>http://members.tripod.com/~anniespark1e/commercial.html


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After a loss of a box you might want to look around the general area.
In many cases were we have lost a orienteering marker it is not rare to
fine it a short distance away. It seems like they quickly lose interst in
it an toss it.

Just a thought, Sorry about the loss.

David

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In a message dated 11/30/98 8:26:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, malenkai@bee.net
writes:

<< so I guess IMO off trail is ok. >>


The letterbox I have in Sewanee is off trail just a bit. I guess I need to
get back up the mountain and see if it is still there! It is about 40 miles
from Chattanooga, I'll be up there this weekend, so I will check on it. Keep
your fingers crossed for me that the box is A-OK!

Becky
Tennessee Letterboxer
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I'm sorry to hear about the missing letterbox, Deborah. It was a very nice
location, and a well organized letterbox. My own is placed off trail, but not
very far, and the directions still point right at it. Inside the box is a
laminated sheet, which is the first thing anyone opening it will see,
explaining what they have found, what letterboxing is, the L-USA website, and a
big big plea to put it all back the way they found it.
I hope you're not too discouraged, and will place more letterboxes soon. I'm
looking foreward to finding them!
-Steven
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Deborah,

Sorry that your box is gone! I hope nothing like that happens again for you.
Thats just plain horrible!


Pax,
Danielle
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In a message dated 11/29/98 8:59:23 PM Pacific Standard Time,
MixtMedia@aol.com writes:

> I think the main trouble is trying to hide a box without getting
> off-trail. Kind of thinking now I may have to get off a few paces in
> order to hide something thoroughly. What do you all think? This
> isn't alpine terrain or anything.... think it's OK to direct a searcher
> off a trail a tiny bit?

As others have said, just use some judgement and common sense. My waterfall
series is in forested area that belongs to Uncle Sam. I was EXTREMELY careful
not to require anyone to tread on any mosses, ferns, or loose (inclined)
gravel. If you make a visible mark on the land by stepping there, you
shouldn't be stepping there... that's my motto.

Still, a couple of the waterfall boxes are off trail a bit... one requires
walking across some large stones that won't be easily displaced... another is
in a grassy area where a minor side path had already been established. Above
all else, always respect the land on which you're walking.

Of course, my rules might not be so strict in some place like a playground or
a local camping area as they are in a State or Federal nature preserve. Some
public land has been designated as being for general roaming and playing.
Other areas are to remain pristine, in which case you should never encourage
anyone to take ONE STEP off the established trails.

If any of my boxes should be brought to the attention of park authorities, I
am confident that the care that has been put into choosing my locations will
be a factor in their tolerance for my activities.

Personally, I also try to find locations that are a bit out of the way, as
well. Maybe along a seldom used side trail, or near a natural resting spot...
someplace where I won't seem too conspicuous when I sit down and perform my
stamping-in ritual. Finding the perfect spot can be a challenge, but it's
worth the extra effort. My goal is to do my best to keep the hobby in-synch
with nature and out of the public eye.

My understanding of the Dartmoor situation is that boxes are not neccessarily
located on a distinct trail, but the rule applies that you should not disturb
the natural vegetation or rock formations in any way. Also, never interfere
with the habitat of any wildlife, and stay clear of historical landmarks,
ruins, monuments, etc.
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Everyone,

It occurs to me that the sorrow we have all expressed for Dehorah's recent
loss exemplifies something significant. Something about ourselves. And
something about our hobby.

Something about the way we make this little stamp... put it in this little
box...

Then... we set it free! Exposed to the elements. Exposed to society.
Vulnerable.
Fragile.

The soft, delicate rubber... the crisp, dry paper.
Alone... in a world of rain drops and tear drops and the almighty unknown.

Suddenly I realize why so many of us got emotional several months ago when
someone mentioned the possibility of changing the hobby to discourage
inclusion of the stamp in the letterbox as a deterrent to theft.

'Cyberboxing' as the idea came to be known, struck a sour note with those of
us who recognized that a REAL letterbox, with a carefully designed custom
stamp enclosed, has a personality... an aura... a life-force of its own. To
lose a letterbox is to lose a little piece of life. But a letterbox with no
stamp has never lived at all.

Der Mad Stamper
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> a REAL letterbox, with a carefully designed custom
> stamp enclosed, has a personality... an aura... a life-force of its own. To
> lose a letterbox is to lose a little piece of life. But a letterbox with no
> stamp has never lived at all.


Mitch:
What a gerat sentiment! I most heartily agree.

When I was in college, I was a cermaics studio groupie - made lots of
pots, loved the process, the glazes, the dynamics of form and creation,
kiln roaring heat, all of that.

Once, I remember, a pot of mine broke in the kiln. Heartbreak. Oh well,
I said aloud, I can epoxy it together. No, said one wise old potter, let
go and make another. Pots are meant to be enjoyed in the lifetime they
have. If they break, thats part of their karma - just make another and
don't let it bother you - its the natural order of things.

So to with Deborah's missing letterbox - the stamp is somewhere else
now, on another pathway. Hopefully, inspiring others, albeit in another
venue than that for which it was brought into being.

The object is not what is precious - it is the process that is the art.
Enjoy the process, and the joy that it brings, to you and to others.

The philosopher from Monkton

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In a message dated 12/1/98 8:47:27 PM Central Standard Time, davisarc@wcvt.com
writes:

> The object is not what is precious - it is the process that is the art.
> Enjoy the process, and the joy that it brings, to you and to others.
>
"Very true"
(from the calm, philosophical, meditative, and altruistic Deborah)
"Waahhhhh! I want my stamp back!"
(from the childish, selfish, inner Deborah)
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In a message dated 98-11-30 23:58:10 EST, Letterboxr@aol.com writes:

<< To
lose a letterbox is to lose a little piece of life. But a letterbox with no
stamp has never lived at all.

Der Mad Stamper >>

WELL SAID, MITCH!

Lynn
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